Where did you come from? What brought you to Wellington?
I come from Acapulco, Mexico - very hot weather, right in the Pacific, south of Mexico. I come from a seven-member family. I’m the second oldest son. 

I came to visit NZ in 2004, and then I stayed. I did not go back to mexico until 3 years later, in 2007. 

My initial reaction towards Wellington was: “What the Hell, man~? This is Mexico upside down.” From chaos to order. From messy to organised. From mischievous to honest. Where I come from is more water and sand and palm trees. It’s green, but lots of sun, so bright, so hot. Over there is more of the sea - tropical feel. Here in NZ is more like nature, bushy, many many shades of green, and very very bluest skies. The sun is not very bright as the sun in Acapulco. It’s bright, but it’s different. The shade of the light, the texture of the light is very different. I know the difference between a sunny day in Wellington and a sunny day in Acapulco. There is a difference in the air. The sky looks kind of like bright blue. Here: more fluorescent. Acapulco sky cannot be so fluorescent. It’s a light blue. Here is intense. Over there is soft.

That was my first impression: Very green. A very peaceful and quiet place. 

Did it feel too quiet at times?
Yes, at times, when I first arrived - can be too quiet. I got used to it. 

What do you think about Wellington?
Wellington is great how it is. Wellington for the better would be: balancing the roads and the streets to the amount of people that have cars. And also, what can make Wellington better is, by some miracle, the weather can be sunny every day. 

What about ... for bars to pay musicians better?
That’s fine. Everybody can do whatever they want and that’s fine. And so can I. I choose my niche and they choose theirs. And we live in harmonious disharmony. You work with the ones you can agree with and deliver your worth. That’s how I get rid of my problems. 

How do you deal with problems and confrontations?
l love to talk face to face - communication, and [for] things to be settled. It’s important for us human beings to be informed,  communicating how we feel, and also with a level of tolerance - always. Because you never know what goes on in the life of another person. Their actions might not be personal. So what i’ve learnt is, you also learn to agree to disagree, and be happy with that. 


Define - and undefine - love.
I would define love as a basic understanding of love, of how everybody understands it. I assume most of us know love is a feeling you get in your chest, when you see or feel or hear something that creates that feeling of peaceful excitement, with the heart pumping. That’s love.
When you eat an ice-cream and you love it, or when you swim and you go into the water with that sensation, that’s love. Love is to feel happy.

Happy with something?
Being it material, a person, a sensation. Love is different for everybody. How I would describe personally love [is based on] how I understand my body and my emotions. Like right now, drinking chocolate, I love it, I say it because I feel it, my mouth is reacting and my body is reacting, and I’m happy. It could be linked to pleasure. It’s a lot of feelings at the same time. Pleasure, happiness, contentment.

Love is embracing. Embracing those feelings. Love is an embrace, is that bridge that connects things. 

Now un-define love.
The universe; The cosmos; vibration; dog and owner; nature and mating; seasons; the birth of the star...Happy birthday, star! The birth of planets; spring. There’s probably seasons in the cosmos. 

Yeah, seasons are the Earth’s way of loving itself and what’s on it.
Yeah....yeah... Far out...

Light; music: music is again vibration; Laughing: Laughing with tears; dancing. 

What about pain?
Many of us have different perceptions of what love is. So therefore I can say love is the embracement of triggered emotions. Someone can say that they love pain. Coz love is greater, deeper, bigger. 

Love is that crack where light comes through.
Where there’s love there’s pain and sadness. In the balance of reality, you can be stuck on love. You can get stuck in darkness and pain. Limbo pain. But not everybody can do that: getting stuck. Most people would have both. And people learn to know themselves, and they can decide or choose where to be. 

So love is a choice. 
Yes, it’s a choice. It’s like: the problem is not the problem, it is the way you’re looking at the problem, the way you’re reacting to the problem. Either make it worse or make it better.

Now that I can see the pieces together, I can see what you’re saying: pain leads to love, that’s like that little crack that you discover - to see the crack and let the light through. Boom!

Coz one who’s really unhappy is either so closed up on themselves, or lashing out on others.
I discover some of the behaviors of depressed person is a self-destructive behavior that’s almost unstoppable, and the person can look for any excuse to piss off people around them whether consciously or unconsciously. The result comes from that behavior is that people get further and further [when] they keep [up with] that attitude. 

Tell me about how good it is to not be part of Jehovah’s Witness.
Best thing ever. There’s this guilty feeling 24/7. So no more: “Am I doing the right thing?” feeling. No more hiding. No more restrictions about who should be my friend. 

Or what song you can sing.
Or who saw me with who, and when. Oh my God. 

I was seen with my neighbors, Jewish or Catholic. I was [told to not continue] hanging out with people that I was not “supposed to; I was seen in the club dancing with this girl really close, and I was not supposed to; I was going on Christmas day as I was invited for a piece of cake and have to refuse for religious reasons; and then they offered me to sit and have a drink of hot tea which I accepted, I was just hanging out with them and I was told off. It was just sitting down at a table for Christmas, which has pagan origins therefore not Godly. Because well, Jesus historically wasn’t even born then. So reasons for their celebration is mundane. 

All those things, I don’t miss them.

Was there anything positive?
Yes! Singing. Music. Public speech. That’s a great thing to teach someone. To communicate. Stage presence. Being able to actually be in the centre and have a speech about a subject, make yourself understood for an audience. I think that’s a good thing. As a musician I got all of those things from that - from Jehovah’s Witness: singing three times a week, speaking in public once a month, to 200 people. 

Another great thing would be sharing. Community. With people that are not judgmental, people who are not frenetics, not lunatic. You find genuine, loving, giving people, caring. That was cool, because you can always count on them. 


Would the world be alright without religion?
I think religion as a group of belonging by making it a brand - that’s wrong. Like: “Hey, I am Catholic.” “I’m a Jew.” It’s like “I am Puma”, “I am Adidas”. You’re just a T-shirt, just shoes. The separation of religions is wrong, I think we should have a common system of gratitude for things. A universal religion.

But isn’t that what every religion is trying to accomplish?
Yes, but according to their own [script]. That’s where it’s wrong. It’s a loop, it’s never ending. Certain religions condemn. Jehovah’s Witness condemns strictly Muslims and Catholics, Because they believe in the false God, and they’re lost, they don’t deserve their kingdom, they need to die, gotta be destroyed. 

I read this primary [school] book [for children] about Muslims recently, about how Muhammad was converting everybody, and those that didn’t convert was chopped [to death]. When I was little, I was told that they follow the wrong God, they believe in Satan disguised as God. 


So what do you see as the truth?
Truth I see it is: the world is chaotic. Religion found a way to exist. What’s supposed to happen. I think all human beings, we have such a vast difference of perspectives on what life is. We have a basic understanding. The minimum of one...we are creators, we created this reality, we created religion, war, planes, cities... All these things. There is chaos. It is chaos and you need to deal with it. 

How should we deal with it?
Well, you create bubbles with people you love; [through] what you can do to change the world: go on a quest to change the world, you need to change your [own] world. You need to make your world beautiful and awesome so you can flourish and leave behind [something] for the next generation. And that is your contribution. If we wanna make a change we have to think in [terms of] generations. We can’t think [only] of ourselves, but what am I going to leave behind for people. 

Think about all these different people. There are people who decide to be emo, to be vampires, gang members.,world leaders - and they just have the power of manipulate, blinded by power.

Imaging if you were Obama, Putin, or [one of] the Rothschild family. Can you imagine yourself in their shoes? No, [we] have no idea. We are so vastly different. We are positioned in many places, all of us, and we have to make our own reality in the best way possible and deal with the chaos that is around us, perhaps our little contribution will ripple and make a change. Our life is vast. Just contribute. Make it beautiful, as long as it lasts. 


Even if it doesn’t. 
Yeah, make it beautiful now.

I’m describing life in the city, how I see it as a city boy. But I believe that truth is found in nature, in coexisting with animals, trees, plants, insects. We don’t have to worry about religions or the Rothschild family [if] we live in nature, in harmony with birds, with seasons, with water, with the grounds... [then] life is so much better, more rewarding. 

Our advancement in technology is too brain focused. You need to work on your heart your stomach, your balance, you feet. You know? like, feel the ground. Feel the vibrations, feel the sound.

In modern city life, we’re on the computer most of the time, car, microwaves, all these millions of things to do and get distracted with, advertising, marketing -- It’s fucking world war 2015. All of this would be great if for my nature to actually just focus on one thing, like planting watermelon or tending a coconut field - Getting familiar with something alive. 

Well, what’s the next thing? Having cell phone attached to our skin. When are we ever gonna be ever alone? When are we ever gonna be [more] aware of life? 


Where do you see yourself in 2 to 10 years’ time?
Somewhere in Australia, Europe or Mexico. Definitely travelling. That’s how I see myself: Moving around the world. I could be sailing, might be joining the Alternative Sailing Community. 

I’m a skateboarder. I like the sea. I like dancing as well. Movement. Maybe I can build my own sailing community. 

​

Tell me about the power of music.
Wow! I think it’s what keeps us alive. I think it’s what keeps the harmony of the universe in place. Vibrations, it’s healing: the vibration is what keeps it moving, consistent and together. 
You are vibration, and I’m also a vibration . 

Music is magic. Music has the ability to hypnotise, to take you out of your body; Music has the ability to take you back in time. You close your eyes and hear this song and you remember this experience in your life, so you actually travel back in time. Music touches your sensations, 


It’s so abstract. Music is one we enjoy but cannot see (except on music sheets of course).
Yeah, man, that’s it. Music is the thing you can see through a receptor: through somebody dancing, through dust moving, through electricity. You can see shapes, sound working through water. It takes a form depending on which is the medium. 

How do you communicate with music?
I communicate it through singing, dancing, an instrument - that’s how I connect with it. 

I personally think that singing is so important. For everybody. For all human beings -- to open your chest and your throat, and inhale and exhale with that sound. I think, singing should be like a health-measure, to keep fit. Doctors and clinics tell you to keep running, [maintain] good nutrition, but they forget [to tell you to] keep singing, keep dancing. They suggest you to go to the gym, sign up with Les Mills. Fuck Les Mills. Sign up to a singing [or] dancing school. Connect to your body. 

The power of music is happiness. It also brings sadness. It brings all the emotions. Music is so vast, the power of it embraces so much. 

Just like love.
Just like love, exactly. I wouldn’t be surprised if music and love are the same thing.

I think that’s very fair. It is said that music is the sound from heaven and that ancient egyptians moved pyramid stones with sonic waves.
I believe that is true. I believe people should experiment with it. People should open their chest, it brings your breathing, your core to your centre. It’s like tuning: you fine tune your body. 


What is your advice on life?
Just to remain open: open to positive things, open through the ups [and] downs of life, be open to go through them, open to be quiet, and be active; to be aware, to observe; to listen to your surroundings: the surroundings tell you how you are; and open to listen to people - the good things and bad things to say about you; to evolve, change for the better; be aware of who you are. And um...The world is a really chaotic and can be a hard place to live, and we can make it a loving place, through you and me. 

Keep tuning in order to make yourself and everybody else happy. And the less is better. The simpler the better. The less friends to have around, the more time you have for them. You know? It can be more meaningful. Don’t worry about having lots of friends. Coz it’s just vanity. More quality. 

We all have to go through a journey. Discover yourself. Learn from yourself. You are not the same you from yesterday, from a minute ago. 

Be aware that we are gonna be apart, and to not be sad about parting, or afraid. Just embrace it, embrace our departure, and our journey towards departing. To be aware of that is important.

I know that most of the days, when you’re young, you think about death, but you don’t truly compute that we’re gonna leave. We ponder. You realise you have things to do, that tomorrow you [will] have disappointment, you plan your holidays for March and you never think you’re gonna die. Everyday we should live as if we’re gonna die, so we make everything meaningful and everything that we do meaningful.

Allow yourself to make mistakes, but forgive yourself, and forgive others for their mistakes, too. As you make your mistakes, you grow to improve, so do others. It’s easy to say, but if you do it enough you come to understand it. That’s how I come to understand it. How many things that could have done better. But don’t hold on to it. It’s important to learn forgiveness. 

So powerful, forgiveness...One of the greatest virtues. And it’s also like, "I’m not bothered~".
Exactly. You feel resentment. If you keep it for too long, it starts to eat you up, because that’s a creation from your ego. It’s your creation, so you’re gonna feel it. But you’re gonna understand yourself, what you want. 

Be aware of what you’re feeling, and do something about it. Meditate a lot. Empty your mind.  

It’s important to look at yourself, look at your habits, look at what you’re doing, look at your reactions to words and certain experiences, how you behave in social settings and how you feel, how your actions are affecting your surroundings... Look at yourself and see whether the road you’re walking is contributing to your own well-being

And others.
And others. Exactly.

Keep on laughing. Laughter is so good. Laugh and laugh lots. If you notice that you haven’t laughed for a long time, make it happen. Bring it out. Laughing is medicine.

Be aware of your dose of singing, your dose of laughing, your dose of exercise, your dose of sex (if you can), you just got to make it happen.

And the only limit is [in] your head. If you do something without thinking, you’ll probably do it. But if you do something and think too much about it, and ask too many questions, it’s self-sabotage.

Be aware of self-sabotage. Choose to not self-sabotage.


What about family?
That is a funny subject. Life is funny. Life is so vastly different and surprising. Not everybody has the same understanding as family. Some people live with a family. Some people can’t live without the family. Some people love their family. Some people hate their family. Some people have to have a family coz they have no choice. 

This is [a] personal subject when you talk about family. I think family is always gonna be that spiritual link: your mom can feel you, your dad can feel you, you and your brothers have that connection. There’s the gene[tic] connection, blood connection.

Whether you be with your family or look at your family that’s different. 

I think it’s important to keep in touch, for closeness, for caring. 

If we don't, it’ll be like chopping away our roots. Good luck for surviving.
Exactly. It’s my family. I will make the best effort. I always imagine myself with a family. I always imagine myself being really close to my children, be quite confident in communicating with them, be trustworthy, build that trustworthy relationship with them. It’s cool with some things, it’s always loving, it’s always understanding. If it’s hard it has a reason behind it. The reason is this. We’ll explain why it broke down. Not just a reaction with no background. Everything that happens needs to be grounded, and backed up by powerful and meaningful information. 
So, mm, but I imagine like, being that, how do you say uh... Being that...inspiration, but also be playful.


How do you perceive time?
Wow! Time! This is my life subject!  

Never understood time quite well. Never work with it quite well. Time is relative. Time doesn’t exist if we don’t measure it. Time is perception for each individual. It’s kinda important because we live with it, everybody’s understanding of time is seconds, minutes. Things we count. So in the modern world we have to be aware of time, and we have to work with it. If we accept time, we should work with it. Otherwise I would never arrive at this interview if I didn’t respect your time. If I choose to live here [on earth], then I have to live with it. That’s my journey which i’m trying to fix. I’m enslaved by it.

Everybody’s sense of time is different. For some it’s immediacy. For some it’s fluid.
But we’re programmed. To work, activities. 8 hour shifts.

And once you start sailing for example - do you think you’ll be able to gt out of that sense of time?
Hell yeah! But even when you work in the field, timing is important. Here comes the sun, it’s sunny, I need to keep my plant watered. It’s rain season now, I need to plant now. And then, I reap. So even if you’re out of the city, time finds you. It’s like, Hallo, you can’t get away, you have to exist with me. 

So what is time?
Time is chance. How many chances have I got in this 1 minute. Realities.

That’s amazing. You’re saying there are multiple possibilities.
There’s already things in time like seasons, whether or not it’s already specified, but that doesn’t mean it’s time, it’s structure. 

But timeless - say, that you live in a close environment, where sunlight is the device. And it’s day time every time! And there is plants and fruits, and there is flowers. So you live in a place where everything just grows! imagine this big field. Where section A there is spring, section B is autumn, section C there is summer, section D is winter. What happens to time? and there is the night area. So you can choose to be at night. What would happen then? that would be a crazy experiment. Imagine that world, imagine you are born in a world where you are born where you can choose. Or, today, I want snow. You just go to the section with winter.

We have to work with it in the best way possibles. For ourselves and others! It's always the same conclusion. We’re not alone. That’s the thing.

Would/Do you like to be alone?
No. I already have the choice to be alone. I would get bored. My doses of aloneness, I take those. And then I take a dose of playtime. They’re both important. 

What would be your spirit animal?
I believe my spirit animal is a whale! Everytime I imagine a whale, I see myself in the water singing, “Wooooooooooooooooh!” I have this connection. I was singing the Argentinian national anthem like this big whale, in the middle of the sports stadium in Hamilton. And I felt that I was not alone. Since that moment, it’s been following me. So then, I see myself as that. 

Yesterday, I was swimming, and I felt like a whale. Confidence in water, oh man, changed my life. So important. It’s like this fear, when I had this near death experience with an overdose, I saw my life going through, [I saw] myself when I was little... I had this trauma. And I decided that I should do meditation with my best friend at that time, and I didn’t tell her that I was traumatised, but I decided to pull out and dropped it with her, and I saw the panic and anxiety coming. As we were sitting outside the garden, I was panicking inside, but I decided to not give it importance. And I decided to not be afraid of not having control. I let go. Even if it could cost my life, I decided that if it was my time, it’s my time. And the moment that happened, I saw the anxiety, when I decided to not fear what’s happening, I felt I could hear, I could feel the ground, the trauma vanished, the trauma dissolved. 

And then this new feeling of life came, and confidence, security, that the universe’s got you. For a purpose, there’s something else, something big, you’re back up. Boom. Again you’re not alone. So it’s the same thing I deal with the swimming trauma, I went there, and put myself in there, facing the fears on my own, and just go in, without fearing to die, or to have control, just go. Make it happen, make it work. Feel confident.

So my teacher asked me, “Why didn't you tell me about your trauma?”
I didn’t think it was important.


Message for the world - with three words:
I would say: love. It’s like, duh --. And then, forgive. And, laugh. Then there’s many words. 1 too many. And sing. Yeah. Instead of laugh. So, sing-laugh. Sing and laugh at the same time. 

Don’t underestimate yourself.

Nor other people.
Or others. Don’t underestimate yourself or others. 



You can book gigs and concerts with Carlos or Carlos' band for public and private functions via the contacting details below --
Email: carlosmusicnz@gmail.com
Facebook: @CarlosNavae
Music: https://soundcloud.com/carlosnavae
For  updates on concerts & gigs: https://www.facebook.com/CarlosNavae

What makes you happy the most?
Music; when I dance; when I achieve success in something that I do at work -- I love my job -- when I hear the girls saying to me, “I passed my exam! Thank you very much for training me!” It makes me happy. “Mission accomplished! Yes!”

   I do have a big part of my life and that is dancing: A nice song, having a good connection with the person I’m dancing with, close my eyes, have a good time. Listening to songs just takes me away, it’s just in here - my entire soul is absorbed, I can imagine myself dancing. And because of the lyrics of the song, the rhythm and the beat - nothing can attain me,

   Now, capoeira is a really big part of my life: it can make me sad and happy, because it’s so important to me that I care so much! When we had a great class, and if I was not in a super good mood when I arrived at class, as soon as we started doing the Ginga - the fact that all the students were in sync in their movements, and the music was so loud - you get into the trance. I had that moment and that look on my face, that I was happy! And when we do the music class, when the energy of the music is good and instruments are pumping, that just makes me happy.

   So I guess, overall - music!

   If I think of work, it’s all about the visual -- if I see something, I’ll do it. But audio -- it’s very important. For our capoeira classes, we say: “Teach as if to do the blind.” What you say have to make sense even to people who can’t see. I do believe that in the artistic world, people will understand something when they look at it. With capoeira as well, you gotta look at someone, see how it’s done. But the audio is more in the music, the trance. I call it a trance because when I listen to music, such as salsa or any dancing music - it is music that equals moving my body to it. As I’m moving into the music, conscious of only certain parts of the body and what the body is doing, but I’ll be completely unconscious of what’s around me.

   Capoeira can be a big exercise. We have been training quite militarily, trying to get our resistance up, sometimes try to continue without even water. If we end up in a game in which we can’t last, we’re going to lose our focus. At the beginning of the class, we’d do 10 minutes of movements, then for 45 minutes from the time we start, we’ll be moving the whole time. 45 minutes later, which is usually after 10 songs - 6 songs if we’re lucky - we’ll repeat the same kick, and then do another kick, and another kick... So many that at some stage, your body’s sore and painful, but you also have the birimbao and the instruments pumping so loud around you, you have so much echo in the room, at some stage, you’d only hear the music, steps, people counting, their heavy breathing. And all you can feel is the breathing, plus the pain; and you want it to stop, you pray for the music to finish, but then you don’t even care if the music doesn’t finish - you’re gone - you’re beyond the pain, you become stronger - it doesn’t even hurt anymore, you can’t feel the pain. Afterwards I would think to myself: “Oh my god, I love capoeira, it’s so good!” That makes me happy! It’s so satisfying, I can’t explain it. Salsa - I miss it, but capoeira is probably why I haven’t danced for such a long time. I’m absorbed in capoeira, I love it, it's so good.

   We do take things for granted. We take our master for granted. We would complain, “Oh it hurts... He doesn’t care... It’s painful...” But when we went to Australia for the congress where he was the invited as the guest, Pererez did a workshop where he trained everyone that way. And for us it’s normal. and he was quite kind: the song wasn’t too long. At the end of that song, he told us to keep our breath - which is lucky - we don't get to have that usually to keep our breath. And because of the way Pererez was answering questions that were asked to him, people looked at him like “He’s great!”. So I thought: Don’t take him for granted. Because of it, even when injured, I would still go to class - because I respect him. That’s why I would feel bad if I can’t live up to his expectations.

   I hated the capoeira uniform, I don’t ever feel comfortable in it. But now, everytime I put my abada on - the capoeira pants that hold the belt - I’m proud, and I’ll be like, “Right! Let’s do this!” It’s not just what I wear - it has meaning to me. It’s no more my master is also my flatmate, it’s “He is my master”, and I’ll just say. “Yes, Master”. Sometimes I may feel like it’s unjustified, but I know he’s the one with the knowledge. If it’s “Yes”, it’s yes; if it’s “No”, it’s no - it’s his rule, it’s his castle. When I go to class and put my abada on, I give honor to what he says.

Now, for the next question...
The answer is Chocolate! Hahaha
​
​What do you think of Wellington?
Do you really wanna get me to talk about Wellington. It’s gonna be 5 million interviews.
Wellington: it’s home. I’m planning on leaving it, and I will come back. But the truth is, you never know. I’m scared that I’m gonna miss Wellington. Coming here, I became who I am. I was a teenager when I came. (I’m still a teenager.) I had to open a power company, look for apartment, sign a lease - I’m out of my parents house, now I gotta go for it. I learnt a new language here. English wasn’t very easy.

   But it’s also that in Wellington I never felt alone. When I went back to France. it was ok, but I was really glad when I came back here. People are so friendly here. My first friend was Avi, Lloyd Jones’ son. And I remember when I first met Avi, we met on Valentine’s Day. We met at Reading Cinema at the food court. He gave me the NZ big hug. I was still more French then than a Kiwi. Kiss kiss, “la bis” we call it. Avi and I were walking around... He was so open minded, so open to meet someone. He was one of my uncle’s friend’s wife’s cousin. I think he was coming back from travelling. Because we were of the same age, my uncle suggested, “Oh you should meet him!” I used to always say, “Sorry my English isn’t very good.” I was not so sure of everything. But it makes me laugh when he said, “Well, you speak a lot for someone who doesn’t know English very well.” Haha!

   At the time I was saving so much money: I didn’t know anyone so I would stay home in the weekend. I would visit friends in Australia, I had friends in Bali so I went to visit them... And my best friend came, so we went to Fiji... The Flight Center agent used to call me the Jet Setter: I used to walk in and say, “Hi, I want to go to Bali next week... I want to go to Fiji next week...” Then I started to look for salsa stuff. I was missing dancing. I started meeting people, and that’s it, I had my salsa crew. My first good friends here were Robin, Robert... I did apply to go to Australia to go work there before I joined the salsa community. If it wasn’t for them, I would have went and worked in Australia.

   I felt really lucky. I was doing so much stuff. When I went home, I saw all my friends - we were still doing same old, same old - and I missed my friends in NZ. I wanted to go to Salsa Drome, I wanted to go get dumplings, have bubble tea, go out on Sundays and go shopping, go to supermarket at 10pm - in France I couldn’t do that. I wanted to just walk down the Terrace, if I feel like it, and go to the market... and see the sea! I wanted to look at the sea on one side, and on the other side, look at the hills! Have the blue and the greens...

   Having lived in NZ, I found Paris so beautiful. The city was dirty but, I found that for the first time, I paid attention to things when I went back there. I’m more aware, since I’m in Wellington, about the environment, and nature, about how everything we do affects it. People are a bit more conscious here. It’s nicer, feeling less threatened by the foreign, I became so open-minded here. I have friends from China, India, Brazil, Mexico... In France, you have people from overseas, but I haven’t been exposed so much before in France.

   I love the size of Wellington. I love that there’s lots of things going on. Even though now I tend to do less things socially, I go out less; I’ll go to the same places, enjoy doing the same things.

   It’s definitely people that I love. The easy way... chilled out... And the Sunday Market: I love going to the Sunday Market and walk all the way to Oriental Bay and back... And there’s always these little tiny restaurants and cafes everywhere.

   It’s also that I’m having less regiments. When I arrived, you would not make me go to KK Malaysia for food. It doesn't look dodgy to me anymore, but I would never go to Newtown restaurants. The other day when I was driving through Newtown, I was like, “Aw my little Newtown...”

   Just being nice to people is what changed for me as well. When I went home, at the supermarket, when I was paying the bills, I asked the lady at the cashier, “Hey, how you doing? How’s your day?” And the lady was like I was asking for her purse! And even my best friend was like, “Why the fuck did you ask that?” Here, we would be like, “How’s your day? How you doing?” We would just ask simply, “How’s your day?”

   Wellington - so many stuff! Professionally, I became a more independent hairdresser. Although I learnt in France where I was a senior stylist doing things on my own, but I just came out of school. Here, I was really senior. I worked and gained lots of experience. As a teacher, I am able to work in the artistic team in the best merchandise chain. I have a good spot, I have to say. There may not be any moving further up. In that role, it’s the role. You could become the manager and work at the head office, but I’m not someone who would work in the office. I don’t want to deal with being a boss. Now I think, actually, I would love to have a business and make good money - you just need to be taught, detach the artistic, the emotional, the doing... See? I’m getting there.

   Wellington has helped me appreciate me as myself, as me! Actually, I think I’m fucking awesome! Hahaha! And it’s not been an easy journey. I made good encounters, good friends - real friends. I know that there will be people, with whom, if I go and come back in 10 years, we never know where we’ll be, and I know there’s that bond and it’s quite strong. I don’t just consider these people my friends. it’s my family. There are people who know me more than my family, than my friends in France, who became different people. I became more of a woman here, and more confident with myself - on the professional side, social side, relationship side... It was hard - I learnt so much. I met so many people that are so amazing. So many!

   I learnt how to do nothing as well in NZ, which is hard. I need to be socially involved with people. If people don't hear from me, I feel restricted sometimes. Now I enjoy times with myself - hard, but getting there.

   Yeah...I just met amazing people, and doing stuff with them, enjoying walking up the hill and see the sea, and just chilling, just sitting on the bench at Oriental Bay... I got my Spanish back. I met capoeira. Capoeira met me... Yeah, just incredible people. Even French people as well, with whom when we went back home, just hanging out, it was so cool! Just connecting with people, just feeling like I belong to a group and we belong to each other. And I’m gonna miss them very much.

   I love Scopa and Duke Carvell’s hot chocolate. I love Oriental Thai. I love the bathroom downstairs in Museum Hotel. I love just walking around Wellington. Embassy theatre - how beautiful is that movie place! I love the film festival - so much going on! I love when, right, I’m gonna go to that party next week, and I have nobody to go with me but I don’t care, coz when I go, I know all the people there. (But sometimes Wellington’s too small...) Bohemian said to me the other day, “Always arrive fashionably late and leave fashionably early.”

   The more I’m thinking about Wellington, the less I want to go home to Paris.


Sandy has moved back to France, and is now living in Paris.
She is still dancing.

Who do you respect the most?
Myself. If it’s other than myself, it would be my mom.
If it’s amongst all people, I still respect myself the most.
I’m righteous, benevolent, truthful,
a good person with a good character.
Out of the people I know, I respect myself the most.

What do you like the most about yourself?
Under whatever circumstances, I never give up,
I’m benevolent, righteous.
I would not do something that will harm others.
That is the preliminary criteria for being human:
it is not to think of oneself first.
This is very important, it needs to be written down.
Under what circumstances should you overlook your principles?
That is when your righteousness might inflict harm on somebody else,
then you need to compromise.
I can never lie, but I can choose to be silent.
This is the compromise, it’s not betrayal.
Certain principles cannot be unfollowed.

(But) really, what do I like about myself?
The most useless part (of me).
It is not certain qualities of my person out of which you can get anything.
Now at this stage of life I am probably more confident.
Now I want to read useless books, do some useless things --
things that do not make any money,
read some books with leisure, have some conversations at leisure.

[I've learnt to] find and realise the good out of something unpleasant.
I quite like that I never give up.
I may stop doing something.
But at the bottom of my heart the most important thing is that I never give up.
I think not being selfish and being kind is very important .
Thinking this way I feel I have a lot of lovely sides.
I feel I am really loveable!


What kind of people do you dislike the most?
I especially despise those who belittle or look down on other people.

The worse a person is, the mors you can learn from them.

Bringing up a person is like planting trees.
Cut away the random little branches & you’ll become a good person.
Everyone has different talents, everyone has their faults.
Just like allowing trees to become useful as timbre,
all the little branches that need to be cut away are a result of selfishness.

The further the faults grow in to the tree,
the more I would cut it away for you.
So you’ll become straight.
And any lumps of bad growth will be small and never reach your heart.
If you have too many random little branches,
then you’ll never become useful.
Even the cutting away of little branches can be painful.
If I’m a real friend I will cut them for you.

My real friends are few.
They are the ones that need to accept me.

One cannot harm other people.
If you’ve hurt me, I would tell you, that this is not good.
But no matter what you do in life,
you’ll also always be punished for the mistakes you’ve made.


Why is it that you respect your mother the most out of everyone else?
I’m not as brave as my mother.
My mother would do things I can never do.
In those times, in that environment - of the 60s,
China was not a bit opened up to the world.
Our ways of thinking were purely based on traditional conventional customs.

At the time, when my mother and father were still dating,
my dad’s brother’s daughter died of starvation.
My dad took my cousin in, and other people would gossip about it:
“You have an 8 year old at your home and you aren’t even married,
and it’s not even your child” sort of thing.
Both children of my uncle’s eventually were sent to my mom’s,
because after my uncle passed away, his wife remarried,
and my mother took in both of their two children.

It was difficult enough at the time with us three children under my mother’s wings.
Even if you were wealthy, you wouldn’t even be able to buy stamps,
because each person was only allocated with 2 Liang (unit of measurement for weight) of oil, etc. under the Communist practice of ration.
But my mother would take in two more children,
who eventually grew up with us in our home.
(So when sometimes) we went to buy vegetables,
people would end up starting a fight for food.
My mom was petite, but she would walk up
and pull the people in arguments apart with her own strength.
I would not even attempt that.

My mom worked in the bank taking care of accounts
and working as a teller.
But some people that worked there would think
a few cents taken for personal or banks’ use from customers
wouldn’t make much difference when they were on the job.
My mother would say to them,
“That is not right.”
In order to prove that a few cents accuracy does matter,
she would stand there, keeping count.
Those days, people like my mom
earned just about 37 Yuan per month of salary.
But in a day, she would total ￥80 or more
from withholding customers’ change. 
After she’d gathered enough evidence,
she went to speak to management at all the banks and related stores,
pointing out that "[Doing things] this way,
you would end up eating up lots of money,
that is corruption."
My mom then asked for lots of coins,
and dispatched them to all the branches,
making sure that the workers would pick out the exact amount
to return it to customers’ accounts.
So she not only cared about this,
she also made the effort to do the investigation.

When it came to China having a policy change
and began having democratic elections,
my mom won full votes from all staff members,
she was the only person that voted for someone else.

I can be as righteous as she is.
But I cannot do things with as much bravery as she did it.
And I feel that my mom is brave
​because she never thought about herself.
I feel, and I fear, that I would always think of myself.
I would not be as great a person as my mom is,
nor would I be as vigorous at what I do as her.

My mother perhaps did not have a life of her own.
I think a person like her is worth writing an ode to and shedding tears for,
like we would for heroes.
And I very much respect mother’s heroism.
My mother would often be betting blind,
and then she really win the game afterwards.

So,
kindness, righteousness, courage,
seems that I inherited those qualities from my mother.


What about your father?
My father is really intelligent!
Knows how to do anything! Too intelligent!
I feel that, in China, probably because of the culture, that there results a distance between the father and the child.
Their influence is less than the mother’s on the children.

My father is very righteous,
and he would never bend his principles under any circumstances.
Because of this, he didn’t live a very easy life.
He was always doing righteous things.
It makes me feel that his EQ is a bit low.
Because my mother chopped away all the faulty little branches from me,
it is from my mother that I learnt most things in myself,
when in fact I’m pretty much a copy of my father.

My father never puts his nose in other people’s business.
My father at the time was against taking in his brother’s children.
Especially when, to him, they were no longer carrying his family name,
and that we were really short of food to feed ourselves at the time.

My father was rational about things.
He would consider all things,
which means his kindness must have a sound basis,
with reasonable conditions.

My mother is really the unconditional kind.
She would take on anything and take in anything.
Now that I think about it,
it is perhaps that my mother had a lot of Chi in her kidneys.
Ever invincible, forever victorious.


What changed since you moved to New Zealand?
There are no essential changes.
On the surface, I have more freedom to be myself.
Being here gives me an environment where I do not need to worry about other people’s opinions.
So externally it’s not the old external self now.
Realistically I am still the same within.

In China I always lived in the lab.
I could quietly be myself in the lab.
There were no ‘time for being a mom’,
no ‘time for being a wife’.
My identity was simply and solely -- a worker.

Here I have a household of my own, time of my own disposal.
Everyday I play the wife, occasionally the mom.
If I have to say anything that has changed,
it would all be on the surface level.
I just feel freer, I can be myself:
At leisure, free, and of myself.

If there is anything that has changed,
it is that I’m not nearly more than 10% of what I used to earn [back in China as the head of two departments],
but, everything I buy brings me more happiness,
I’ve learnt to enjoy the simple things more,
such as when I’m working in my garden. 

New Zealand has a good level of tolerance towards the multicultural presence and the values that must follow.
It is very important that NZ has such a forbearance,
so that NZ can continue to develop.
Particularly for a lone island: 
without immigrants, it is just a lone island.
Us immigrants become the bridge for NZ to the rest of the world.
Some Kiwis may not have realised that.

Despite their mental denial of others’ cultures,
they (New Zealanders) would still never utter it out loud.
For their careful diplomacy,
they never express anything bluntly.

Whereas in China,
you encounter times where
you would become disappointed
by the people you love,
become depressed because of your own family,
(especially) of your parents.
Kiwis should feel very lucky,
because their parents may never demand something of them that would hurt them.



What are your views on early childhood education at home?
I have given my child freedom,
ever since I became a mother,
I’ve given my child opportunities to make independent choices.
I would list out the possible outcomes from each option,
but I had never imposed anything on my child,
which pretty much makes my child the luckiest child of China.
I would have hopes, I would express myself,
but I would never impose anything,
nor had I ever forced anything.

Everyone goes through a stage
where others try to stop you from making mistakes
while you would always think you’re right.
Every parent is like that.

[Another thing to teach a child is that]
One would always work hard at making a good living when they do so for their family.
You mustn’t lower your benchmark.
You must always learn to feel a sense of pride for your family.

It is only when you feel pride for your family would you find the deep motivation.
If you only work on being yourself, then you’ll cease sooner in your efforts.
When I work on how to be a better person,
I often think of my mother.
I want to be a person greater than my mother.

In the Chinese language, [the word] reflects the culture
-- with the example of the word “country”,
it’s made up of 2 words - nation and family --
only when they’re together do they make a “country”.
When we’re in conflict with foreigners, we become the nation; 
when we’re living our lives for ourselves, it is all about being a ‘family’.

The only time when China began to become weak as a country
was at the start of the Yuan Dynasty.
When the Mongolians begun holding sovereignty over us,
that’s when we began thinking of China as a nation.

[For this reason and philosophy,]
In the few thousand years’ of human civilisation,
China had always been the most prosperous.

Our family is a long line of scholars and gentle-folks.
We always, forever, think of home.
Therefore every person’s life is lived for the honor of the family.
For the Face.
Even up until now,
whatever the Chinese people do they still do it for the Face,
for the honor of the family name.

Us Chinese like to speak of Honoring the ancestors
and shining upon the forbearers.
Only when you think of honoring the predecessors would you never dare to slack off in life.
In actuality, everyone thinks of themselves.
But as long as my mother and father are present,
I would never stop doing this and that.
Their standards are high, that my home must be like this or like that.

Having participated in others’ funerals,
I’ve found that in New Zealand, there are many big families,
therefore the sense of the family and the values that follow are heavily present.

Many Chinese these days no longer carry the sense of the family.
When those that go trace their family tree,
their ideas about themselves would never be the same.

Really, the core of many cultures are one and the same.
The longer I live in New Zealand the more I see how similar to China it is .
It’s like the difference between the white onion and red onion.
The first layer of the onion skin might be dry and drab,
and you can’t see the actual onion on the inside from this layer.
But the further you peel, the deeper you dig,
the more you’ll discover the onion’s sweetness.

So really, there are very few differences [between China and New Zealand]
despite being different kinds of onions.
The onion is spicy on the outside,
but the further you peel into the onion,
the more you’ll realise that the center is sweet
[for any onion, ie between any culture].

In fact, it is because of the difference of their locations, of their religions,
that they developed different cultures.
Cultures are but a few kinds.
Their central cores, the innermost cores are but one and the same.

Because man wants to be endowed with what’s beneficial and avoid the bad,
so any kind of culture is always going to be kindness-oriented.
You may seem different on the surface,
but onions will always be onions.

The degree of hardness or softness varies between cultures.
Muslims would commit to suicide bombs;
while Chinese never would [committ such violence].

To be fair,
a fundamental key to the reason for European and Oriental cultures to be what they are
is due to the density of human population.
Because you've always gotta consider for others.
Because we inhabit a huge dry land,
therefore we have always had to engage with other histories of other cultures.
Then you most definitely learn to accept and tolerate others.

The more you have seen from experience,
the less you’ll feel anything as strange or unfamiliar.
You’d never alienate anything,
nor would you feel anything to be peculiar.
I know that I do not know,
therefore you know better
that there is so much you do not know still.


Is there anything you would like to see changes made in China or NZ?
I wish for nothing to change. It’s all fair and well.
I believe culture is a thing that, to be honest, is self-selecting and has its own sifting process.
There is a kind of inheritability.
And naturally, the bad will be selected out and sifted away.
I feel it will take its natural course.

Because there are so much in the Chinese culture,
there is thus too much under-appreciation.
Such as the cultures of the minority ethnicity groups.
People might feel it’s too provincial, even peculiar,
but I hope they will continue to thrive and remain here.

I feel I do not need to take any responsibility for the cultures of the West.
And I do not claim to know them so well, either.
If I must hope for something, for Wellington,
it is for Wellington to maintain its tolerance for cultural diversity.
This is largely to do with every immigrant.
If you do not show the best of your culture, then in many things,
Chinese already lost a lot of respect [from the people in New Zealand].
Therefore Chinese will not be as well received.
[They] are loathe-worthy.
Everyone must take on the duty of doing in one’s best ability
to exhibit the best of one’s cultural tradition.

In New Zealand, people do not show what they really feel,
in fact that can be quite loathsome.
For example, us Chinese people are very direct,
and will tell you what they feel straight-away.
Western people may be laughing at you in their hearts, and you stay all silly.
It’s really very vain.
You do not benefit me by not telling me how you feel,
and in the long term, you do not benefit yourself from it.

Another good example:
is the way Chinese people greet each other,
it’s just a simple "Good to see you",
and then we go on being busy with lives.
Western people would say, “How are you?” [as a question]
You may say it without wanting to hear an answer to the question,
as if you’ve really cared about that person or something.

People [may choose to] deal with me on the surface level,
that has nothing to do with me.
I dislike that they act all cordially
in order to show how high and superior they are.
They would say,
‘Ah you’ve done this and that and that very well,
but then you know, you’ve done that and this not so well...”
Ah! Such a waste of time!
One is one, two is two,
what’s the point of dragging on with all the fuss about being polite and all!

Why is New Zealand so fallen behind in terms of progress?
The only good thing that could come out of this is,
people live a leisurely life.
Leisure is the most luxurious thing in this world.
This is a matter of capacity of the mind and of the heart.
When it comes to the really big matters,
Chinese people are very euphemistic and rounded.
Population is too dense,
people need to be direct with everyday little things.

A popular saying online goes like this:
There flows 5 words in the sky,
that is not at all a big deal.
Even horses of the heavens
[phonetic slang in Chinese for ‘anything’]
are just floating clouds.

Westerners deem forms over function too much,
Chinese people deem outcomes very highly.
That this thing needs to turn out leaving everyone feeling good.

In China, severe earthquakes hit Sichuan
[in 2008, just a few months away from the start of Beijing Olympics],
[the central government of China ordered
for] this province to go help this city,
and that province to provide funds for that city:
In 2 years' time,
all victims from the earthquakes have moved into new houses.
Here, in Christchurch,
how many years has it been now?
People are still troubled by lack of proper housing.

China is all about [meeting a] deadline.
[When it comes to governmental decision making}
[As the central government, I am going to] give you 3 months,
within these 3 months, say all you want to say,
after this 3 month period, I’m going to have nothing to do with you,
because I’m going to start working on implementing the issue.
[Whereas in New Zealand, ]
simply by having unlimited endless democratic discussions,
how are you going to make progress?

I’m really reminiscent of China’s [system of] democracy-first,
collective decision-making second.
Without centralization, there will be no actions.
And there will Never ever be progress.
If you spend every day asking each other,
"what do you think about this?"
"what do you say about that?"
what is the use of a government?
You need to have a person to hammer the gavel.
Here, there is not a real leader,
here, there is a government,
everyday it’s either this or that.
Whereas centralisation is not the same as authoritarianism.
That is why us Chinese people go democracy first, centralization after.
Centralisation of decision-making is a way of reaching a conclusion.

First, ask the common folks,
let the people make claims on what they want the government to address;
then,find the best experts for a democratic purpose.
Chinese don’t like to be framed by professional judgements,
so people’s voices need to come first.
Professionals are employed for making evaluations.
What the professional can offer is what is called
"providing advice to the government";
what the people contribute is called
"offering opinions and suggestions";
The final decision making is left for the government.

The thing that disappoints me the most is that,
since coming to New Zealand, I’ve liked all things, except
when it comes to this matter of infrastructure reconstruction in Christchurch,
too slow!
​[It is just too] painful to think of.
For such a beautiful city to have so many years of delay,
is the incapability of the government.

Chinese people like to see the final outcome,
and it is the outcome that is demanded by the people!
Otherwise,
why would all the people of China keep having
“Thankful to the government” on the tip of their tongues?
It’s because the government has gotten something done [for them].
You see anything worth feeling thankful for towards the NZ government?

I feel their sense of belonging is not as strong as that of Chinese people.
Chinese people would sing:
“Five Starred flag, I feel proud for you;
Five Starred flag, I feel self-pride because of you.”
Here, the most that people would support is an -ism of their choice.

Often-times, it requires a kind of self-dedication to do a thing right.

And Chinese are about the middle-way,
that things need to be just right, balanced.
For example, why do we call a country a ‘nation-home’?
That is because a nation requires people’s devotion.
We say ‘faithfulness & filial piety cannot both compromise’.
Loyalty to the nation is called faithfulness,
the same towards the family is called filial piety.
When the country is facing conflict, we would say,
“It is every man’s duty [to serve the country at this difficult time],
faithfulness and filial piety cannot both compromise.”

What you need to give to the country needs to be all about devotion.
What you need to give to your family is harmony.
Where does harmony come from?
It comes from being just right.
It’s about achieving balance.
It’s very important.
Harmony therefore translates as nobility.
The most expensive and precious thing is nothing but harmony,
that is, peace.

Even with harmony,
we have many different words and different kinds of harmony --
Harmony-in-serenity,
harmony-in-concord,
harmony-in-amity,
harmony-in-singing.

When it comes to politics and the economy,
we call it the country.
But when poets write about the country,
because poets are strong in sensibility,
they would refer to the country as “family-nation”.
I don’t know if there is this kind of sharp distinction in the English language.
I just really like ‘family-nation’.
Especially when it’s to do with ‘thousand autumns of hate on behalf of the family-nation’.
The thing that hurts you the most is not a result of the nation-family,
the thing that would hurt the most is because of the family-nation.


I have grown to disregard more and more
of the kind of civilisations based on invasion, plunder and war.
I used to worship the Western culture.
Now I rather like our Chinese culture.
Our Chinese culture has a lot of generosity and tolerance.
‘I will receive the ten thousand  celestial kingdoms that come to assemble here.”
You come to my place, I will accept you.
But I will never go to invade your country, and rob you.

Our culture is one of peaceful coexistence.
This includes our medicine
which is all about strengthening, reinforcement, fitness, and not about killing bacteria.
And we are very good at self-reflection and introspection.
Us Chinese people would feel,
your fire has risen up in you,
or, evils have attacked you from the outside.
If you don’t feel serene, it’s because the fire has risen in your system.
Risen fire is nothing but excessive Yang and exhausted Yin.
It’s because you don’t accept other people,
that’s why you have fire risen in you.
So we talk about being gentile and soft.
soft as Yin, harmonious as circle.
Circles are without sharp angles,
and the change is grudual and smooth.


In fact, time is the most precious.
Time is life’s most fundamental unit.
If life is measured by its length, time is its unit;
if life’s measured by its width, time is its element.
For old farmers in the countryside, life is made of days,
his life is the acres of land in sight.
But for those who travel here and there,
from one country to the next, their life is full of width.

Delve deep into ancient civilisations and their history.
Without the knowledge of history, one’s life will not have depth.
Bacon said, knowledge is power.
But he was a foul character.
He often betrayed his own ideals. He was too smart.
Therefore, he did not have as much wisdom,
and was not as faithful or staunch in his principles.
Intelligence and wisdom are two different things.
Therefore us Chinese people talk about harmonious peace.
Chinese people on the other hand are all about the middle-way.
Bacon was not balanced.
He himself was not a man of greatness.
He died because of an experiment.
He felt that if chickens were frozen,
the bacteria would be killed in the process.
He got infected and died from the infection.


Did your university studies in organic chemistry shape your worldview somehow?
Organic chemistry is very wonderful, very helpful.
In life, people are full of leisure.
Chemistry is about the ideal state.
Categorise, then you can mingle with others.
Extract, then you’ll discover dynamic equilibrium.

So chemistry has helped with the formation of my worldview
and my theories towards life.
I feel quite fortunate,
especially that I studied organic chemistry.
Once you take away the ideal state, analyse its various factors,
just the same as when you analyse various aspects of the society.
And it is because of this, that when I socialise with other people,
I would analyse, I would categorize,
and finally come up with an OPT - optimum.
I will live the most ideal state of my life.
When you’re in the best state of life, you’re a happy person.
So I have grasped an ideal perfect state of Chinese culture
through an organic chemistry method.


Tao is about making the elixir of life.
In fact man’s ultimate dream is wealth and an extended life.
Therefore to read some more of the Tao concepts,
- if you really dig in to the subject - 
you’ll enter into a Buddha-like state of selflessness.
Just like when I enter into the laboratory,
I have no concept of time.
My colleagues would all be amazed --
that I was completely in a physical shut-off state.
I really like that state of being.
Every season, I would publish a new color,
and I must work on developing and releasing a new color every 3 weeks.
The moment I see something,
I can devise 80% of the formula in my mind immediately.
The colors I develop come from my heart, the paint, the dyes.
Once I’m in the lab, I won’t think of anything.
I would even forget about my child.
I have neither a child, nor a family.
I feel very empty, very vast.
There is no me, I do not feel my body,
I do not have a sense time,
I do not have the concept that I have a child, all I have got is my job.
I feel like I’m not anywhere in particular,
it’s a beautiful feeling.

When I first left my parents, I felt very awful.
Now I’ve thought it through.
[It’s an ancient saying to] advise a person
to care for whoever is right in front of you.
You must still cherish the people next to you.
[It’s about] the people in front of you,
and the immediate matters that need taking care of.
[That is:] what I have, and what I can do --
not what I cannot do, or someone I cannot reach to.
That’d be stupid.
After this realisation, I’ve found my balance.
Since I cannot do much for my parents,
what’s the point of feeling awful.
[Plus,] what my mother wants for me is for me to be happy.

As long as one has accomplished the life they feel satisfied with,
they will naturally be happy.
Your satisfaction or fulfilment is possible to achieve
but not something to simply want.
You need to have the skill. 
Happiness is not a goal, but should be a state of being.

One must set higher and further goals.
You don’t necessarily have to achieve the goal,
you don’t have to feel satisfaction,
but, in the process of the pursuit, I feel happy.
That is because,
when you do obtain it, you will but feel,
this is not much of a big deal after all!
So we must aim higher and further.

Out of the poets,
I really like White Lee (李白), Eastern Slope Soo.
But if I would choose one to marry,
I would choose Xiu Ou Yang, Wei Wang
(he’s a painter, a musician,
he lived for a very long time, and he was an interesting character.)
I like those who are graceful, refined, and stable.
I don’t like those that follow their whims.
When I do my job I like to be professional, and responsible.
Take ambassador En Lai Zhou (周恩来) for example,
because of his sacrifice, his grievances,
he secured many lives of the Chinese people.
China was then all about the War of the 10 Roads.
Zhou was forever in his invincible place,
where as Chairman Mao was felled many times over by other people.
Kissinger wrote a book called The Leaders,
in which he wrote about Zhou,
he didn’t care about writing on Chairman Mao.
I respect Chairman Mao. He was a man of probity.
He was poor once, and would never corrupt a cent of money.
And he loved books.

I like people who love books.
What I love the most is books,
but what I cherish the most is kindness and benevolence.
But in this world of materialism,
books are rather important nonetheless.
Because all people care about now is money.
[Life’s about] what my heart feels. Feelings are very important to me.

My grandfather and my great-grandfather were both wizards.
Wizards need to feel for things,
to feel for the world, for the people, and the environment.
They were the people that were able to make something happen.
They healed people’s illness.
They would go look for herbs, pick them and make herbal pastes.
During morning walks with my father,
he would be able to recognise many herbs
because of his father and grandfather.

My mother’s side of the family had a headmaster,
her father, who was prepared for studying abroad in Russia.
He didn’t eventually go to university,
because he practiced filial piety,
as his mother wanted him to get married.
My mother’s side of the family had teachers and businessmen.
They used to travel to the capital city for business,
to bring back the money they made and build houses, 
to honor the family.
But no one knows where they ended up eventually.
Back in those days, there were no banks.
They were carrying the money they made in actual silver pieces.
Speculation goes that they must have been robbed and killed on the road.

[My mother’s father --] my grandfather
was an early-born of 7 months in the embryo.
Chinese people used to say,
“Live through 7, but not through 8”.
So he was carried in a face wash basin
and handed over to some other family to be raised.
His adopted mother was married
but her husband went to Beijing to do business right after they got married.
So she was never able to have a child of her own.

Everything in my grandfather’s life had something to do with the number 7.
The day my grandfather died,
my grandmother stirred up my mother from her sleep and said:
“Today there are a lot of 7,
there is no chance he would be able to make it through this day.
There is some big event that happens every time it hits 7 for your dad: 
He has 7 children; today is the 7th of the 7th.”
My mother quickly went over to see her dad.
At 7 minutes past 7a.m., my grandfather died.
He was 77 years old.


What would you like to say to your family, but never had a chance?
Thank you,
I'm sorry,
and
I love you.

Because I did not have much chance to pay filial piety to them,
I could not help them being here.
In this culture of ours, we do not say ‘I love you’.
I can accept all things.
Some things do not have to be said out loud.
Everything else is small things, those are all unimportant.
Compared to my sense of guilt and thankfulness,
those little things are all unimportant.

&
Truthfulness.
People would sing ode to kindness.
But who have sung for truth?
People overvalue knowledge, power, even kindness.
People lack real appreciation of truthfulness and faithfulness.
Truthfulness is neglected by people,
faithfulness is not something people want to do/have.
People have an over-tolerance for unfaithfulness.
This means that they will not cherish faithfulness.


What would you advise to the future generations?
Have kindness.
[Learn about] culture,
especially for Oriental culture to be in the West, that would be great.

Be faithful to oneself, love nature,
be a person of great character.

Be a person that will make yourself feel proud of yourself.

I hope my offsprings will make their parents proud,
and make their own future generations proud,
that is - a person of great character,
to feel fulfilled by oneself.

[Know that]
I am minute and small.
​My power is limited.

We had a family friend, mom’s dear friend, Jane,
who lived on the beach.
She was an artist.
She had this amazing big dog, Daisy.
Mom would always let me paint there,
play with the dog, be with Jane.
Jane passed a few years ago.
She was very modern.
I was very curious of her,
because she would have short hair,
wear very long black dresses, like a witch.
Actually I haven’t thought about her until just now...

Authenticity --
it’s important to be authentic to yourself.
So from [the movie] Inside/Out
Joy was supposed to be the hero, right?
That comes from the perception of happiness,
that happiness is a right for everybody.
Really, sadness is really with you as well,
and she turned out to be the hero as well.
A lot of people suffer from depression.
It’s like a roller coaster:
you come from the darkness,
but you learn to be content with that.
It’s about resilience. Scan your body,
and scan your feelings, and that’s okay.

With depression , you slum into a hole,
and you don’t really want to get out of it.
A lot of my friends have severe manic depression
[that they] couldn't get out of it for days.
[One] has given up completely. It’s very triggering.
Don’t let that category define who you are.

It was really a concern for me to work for Refuge,
surrounding myself with all these bad stuff.
It made me very resilient,
because I would draw resilience from their experience.
It’s a very powerful journey.

When people write up their CV,
they write: “I’m a really results-oriented person.”
Really, you can’t get attached to the outcome.
When you work at the Refuge,
you want a good outcome.
You have to stay present,
and just be there for her
[any woman that seeks help at the Refuge],
and as long as she knows you’re there,
at that present moment, you’re ok.

My second ever phone call as a volunteer: a woman rang:
​
   “He’s trying to get through the door!”

She rang us instead of the police.
When I asked for her phone number,
the phone just cut [off].
I wish I asked for her name.

“It’s ok,” my supervisor said,
“she rang you to hear your voice, and that'll help her.”
And that sense of connection is so vital.
We become so hollow and lonely when we don’t talk to people.

What is compassion?
[It’s] very tied in with empathy.
I see it in gestures as well.
The look in the eye. Hand movements.
If you’re open, you’re letting yourself be vulnerable,
you’re letting people in,
and you’re not blocking yourself from people.

[It’s also] tied in with active listening.
There’s where you really practice your active listening skills.
Just simply observing the other person and,
not talking over them.

[Compassion is like] that song
♩Lean On Me♪,

I think it’s completely contextual.
There have to be messages conveyed to you from that other person.
There shouldn't be judgment passed.
Even just simple generous gestures,
that’s very compassionate.

In Somaliland, the woman would just kiss my hand -
I’d kiss her hand, and she’d take [mine] and kiss [it].
The men wouldn’t shake your hand.
That’s why I was very lucky being a woman researcher.
I wasn’t interested in men [as my subjects]
I met a few who really just tarnished my view about patriarchy there:

A man invited his friends over to his house right after his wife just delivered her baby -
[he] did not have compassion for his wife,
[nor was he] mindful that 'my wife just gave birth.' The men were [there] chewing kat.

Even when we had our radical picnic at our university -
We organised a picnic, the uni I worked at.
Some students were allowed to go,
some weren’t.
Boys would mingle with girls.
There were 3 principles that students wanted to voice about:
caring for environment; loving your family;
and respecting how much work your mother does
(they all cook, and it’s a lot of work);
recognising family as FMU [Fundamental Moral Unit]
and bringing everyone together at the same space.
Yet, [the] grownup males, the Islamic teacher, the vice president,
they grouped themselves off,
they didn’t contribute to anything,
threw their rubbish on the ground,
expected the girls to pick them up.
I said [to them],

   “No, being together is important.”

[So] they came [and joined us],
but they were on their own mats.
They were ridiculed by the students.
It’s good for the boys to see what you’re not supposed to do.
The boys helped out with cooking -
for boys to flip the fish over, and wash the dishes,
that was radical.
It’s nothing but something,
it means a whole [lot].
This whole division of labor,
it’s not doing them justice.

Do you love dogs or cats?
I’m a dog lover. That’s just always it.
I think it comes from my mother.
My mom was very horrible to cats when I was younger.
Cats don’t like me and I don't like cats.
Cats are too independent for my liking.  
Dogs - lots of companionship there.
They pick up the same behavior as family.
Mom sleeps a lot,
so you’ll always find [my dog] Milo in bed.

Milo is like a sacred symbol - everyone surrounds him,
and that brings us together.
And Milo would always want the family to be together.
There was once we went shopping.
I said to go get something that way,
and mom needed to get something the other direction.
We didn’t have Milo on a leash,
so he just [sat] in the middle, and looked each side.

[In Somaliland,] dogs were imported by the British.
They were treated badly. They looked sick.
Homeless. Quite dangerous.
In Islam, you’re not supposed to touch dogs.
So people throw stones at them,
even if they’re sleeping.

My colleague called me the Dog Whisperer.
[One day,] I finished work.
There’d be this open alley way
and dogs would just sleep on it.
Little shits would just over and throw stones at them like sport.
The dogs were getting really wired up,
and they just barked and barked.
I said to them,

   “Mya! (Stop it!) Stop doing that! That's really bad. That's awful.”

To prove a point,
I walked through them,
and they were just shouting,

   “Mya, mya. Don't, they’re dangerous, they’re evil.”

I said,

   “No, you’re making them evil. You’re making them mad.”

So I walked down this alley way,
and every dog I walked past just quieted down.
I was scared, and the boys
just [watched with their jaws dropped].


What do you think you would do if you were to move to Somaliland?
I would teach English.
I’d be very engaged with the community.
You have to be.
Everyone just knows who you are.
So you really need to put a good name out there for who you are.
Protect yourself.
And surround yourself with people

I’d love to open up a woman’s skateboard organisation.
So girls could skate and play basketball.
There’s a private gym where windows are closed off.
But for them to run around or play sports,
there’s nothing offered for them.

[In Somaliland,] they know Saudi Arabia is crazy in [terms of] Islam.
But, have some self reflection.
You don't want to be like that, right?
People have very negative views about Muslim
- Don't prove them right.

I’ve a lot of friends who think Christianity is [tended to be]
really imposing a particular view.
It’s like with transvestites -
they wear a hell of a lot of makeup.
Whatever makes them feel good,
they have the choice.

On sex workers:
I went to Vietnam with Jacob,
[it] must have been a few years [back].
We went from Ho Chi Minh to Huong,
which is my favorite, and then Hanoi.
The only thing that upset me was the Westerners.
The disgusting old men that picked up that 12 year old girl.
They were holding hands.

Sex is the old job huh?
For sex workers, why does it have to mean something?
[Society] breaks it down to [how] sex doesn’t mean anything,
[that] sex is just a service.
[But] sex workers [are the ones] doing it,
men are not.
Unless [there’s] a pimp,
[it becomes] male organised thing.
These women are in control of their sex,
they’re not doing it for babies,
they just overturns that whole system around.
There’s a sense of peace when it comes to it.

I love and encourage women to be themselves and goddesses,
because that power has been taken away from them for so long.
I really like the philosophy of the Mother Earth,
we’re more attached to earth than fit soldiers who create war.

I read this book on goddesses, and,
they did this old rituals and bathe,
and drink apple cider vinegar tea -
it’d be a ritual of purification.
It comes down to companionship.
They found women who had similar ideals,
learn about nature, worship nature,
because it’s close to their anatomy.
And maybe they don’t associate themselves with the male-dominated world,
so they find peace in this philosophy.

What is Beauty?
Beauty is subject to constant change.
It’s influenced by time.
Depends on the individual.
I see beauty everywhere,
through experience...

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.
For indigenous people,
I consider them beautiful,
they got a story to them.
It sounds horrible to say but I think
it’s more beautiful than the colonial Europeans.
Like the Native Americans,
they’re beautiful.

That’s really unique in NZ coz we hold on [to Maori culture].
In Fiji they’re really dismissive of indigenous culture,
like Pentecostal,
they condemn indigenous practitioners

If it’s got a story behind it,
if it’s got pure intentions, it’s beautiful.

[At the same time,]
I’m really sceptical of the purity discourses.
The underlying meaning [is],
they [men] fear her reproductive power,
coz it’s different from their own.
With authority,
you always have to be sceptical when people say something.
You have to be critical in this world.
Stripping all those discourses,
it’s a form of resistance.

In Religious Studies,
we seriously neglect the issue of race.
Jesus woulda been brown or black, not white.
Even in indigenous studies,
it’s white studies -
It’s white scholars imposing their view based on their experience on indigenous people.
And when scholarship is donated by white,
it’s just another form [of] superiority.

When foreigners go to their countries, they’re called expats.
I call them foreigners.
Other NGO workers call themselves] expats.
Dont disrespect Somalians by calling yourselves expats.
I’m not comfortable with the term expats.

When I did that internship with Tearfund,
it's a Christian social group.
I watched a campaign about human trafficking.
We were supposed to write an essay about
what we’re gonna do with sex trafficking,
how to combat with the issue.
I said: Join up the sex workers!
Get the community to join up with the sex workers.
Collaborate instead of imposing on [these sex workers] their views [on sex work] as sinful.
This [is a] completely different agenda.

Tearfund has the strand I’m not comfortable with.
NZ is a target country.
They say that sex workers are going to expand this [industry] from human trafficking.
I’m not comfortable with that at all.
I’ve researched:
Prostitution law makes things more transparent,
and protect the sex workers.
It’s not going to boom this industry.
I didn’t support that stance at all.
The pastorship didn’t want Tearfund to talk about prostitution.
First, call them sex workers,
coz [the pastorship] will hate that.

Jesus was a radical equalist.
Distributed wealth.
It’s all about interpretation.
It’s very [Darwinian] -
For your health to improve,
you need to lean on other people.

A lot of my friends are gay.
Living in the culture we live in,
I do find that intolerable [when Christians talk against homosexuality].
With Christians, they see death as evil,
so they think suicides is a form of evil.
[Going against Christian ways of thinking is] the whole euthanasia debate
- that’s the situation where you’re healthy

There is this Somalian saying:
"Even when there is not a family around to support her,
the woman can dance with her child on her back."

Self-care is very important.
It’s sort of an effective mechanism
to not carry the burden of others,
to scan your bodies, scan your emotions, scan your feelings,
what’s today going to be like. We forget to.

[Now], I value my family more,
I really missed my mother when I was away.
Not for different food, not for cool climate,
not to wear pants or shorts,
but for my mother’s hands, they tell a lot.
Having mother’s arms around me was the most thing I missed.
So when I’m back in Wellington now,
I always go straight to mom for hugs.
I believe it’s a great strand of energy,
one that’s pure. It’s very fulfilling.

That’s part of the finding for my research [in Somaliland].
I was very interested in my mother-daughter relationship for my report.
Social support from mothers really help with reproductive success,
& she is most strongest when she has a daughter.
Boys are taught to detach.
I’m really interested in the FMU.
It’s a matriarchal practice.
Once daughter has it, she stays confined in the home.
It’s the mother’s investment in the daughter to make sure she’s married.
It’s quite special and unique.
[I also think] it’s our time to protect our mothers.

In Chinese, there is a saying,
"The filial duty of feeding one's parents is carried even by the crows."
[You know] the awful sound that crows make,
it’s a signal to the other crows, they’re not individualistic.


If you were to be an animal, which would you pick?
We had this discussion in Somaliland,
I really like to be a dog,
but I got given peacock.

I’ve always been obsessed with female eagles.
Because they [would] fly through twisters, in order to get to their babies.
I find that very powerful.
I want to have that ability.


Do you ever wanna be a mother one day?
I don't know yet.
A lot of women these days are unable to find a partner
because of commitment issues,
but these women are ready to have babies.

Any future plans to travel?
I definitely want to go to Ireland.
I made some good friends who are from Ireland.

I can always see myself living in France,
learning the language.
I find Germans are quite hard to talk with.
There’s this horrible joke:
You know Jewish people are most funniest people in the world,
that’s apparently why Germans are not funny.

What do you like about Foucault?
Power discourse,
subjectivity that encapsulates philosophy of the subject,
power discourse and what that means to the subject.
And where there is resistance, there’s power.
Very brilliant man.

Feminists are really conflicted about Foucault.
Some say he’s anti-Feminist.
Some say he’s completely revolutionized feminism.
He’s been implicit.  
He completely stripped away homogeneous identities,
constructed identities, that for repression and oppression.
His ideal world would be for women to sleep with women and men.
He believes multiple discourses need to be proliferated to break down a powerful discourse.
And I believe in he’s a feminist,
a very post-modern one.
Very brilliant guy, radical socialist.
He’s very political.
There’s a famous photo of him protesting against condition of prisoners.
His efforts for people marginalised by society.
He’s a great guy, I’d love to have dinner with him.


Who else would you like to have dinner with?
I’d love to have dinner with Valerie Solanas:
she was a crazy one, who shot Andy Warhol.
He stole her arts.
You should read
Scum: Manifesto for Cutting Up Men.
It’s very short, very ridiculous.
It’s a famous piece of literature.
She didn’t do feminism any justice,
but she’s an interesting character.
I wouldn't show my students this.
They would find radical feminism funny.
​They really like post-modern feminism,
they don’t think western feminism will speak to African, Muslim issues.

Who else - Helen clark. David Lange.


What would you like to say to men who are mistreating women?
Take a look at yourself.
I hope someone treats you the way you treat other people.
Just so you can learn.
I wish [for] you what you do to others.

At Refuge, we design a safety package.
We get the police involved.
All the girls should learn self-defence.
You don't have to be as big of a person:
you can kick their shin, he’s going to release you,
and you’re going to run away.

It's always a blaming game as well.
“I do this because I love you.”
They mix love with violence.

And it’s the same with parents.
The child knows the mother/father loves them.
If they hit their child,
they confuse love with violence.
And that becomes an ongoing cycle.
So in our programme, we break that cycle.
We teach children not to express their anger,
but teach them to override it,
the breathing technique,
talk to their mom, not to social workers,
talk to their schools.
[Some social workers have] done a lot of injustice to the mothers.
We’re not child-advocates,
we’re women advocates.
Putting them in homes does them no good.

​
Advice to the future generations:
To leave a lot of space for innovation & creativity.
That’s closely tied up with green technology.
NZ government I believe is a very state-driven sort of dictators for scientific research.
There’s no money in it for NZ.
There's no room for it.
Whereas Germany puts in a lot of money for scientific research.
NZ is not like that:
even when they talk about free market,
it's very state driven. It’s awful.
So I believe creativity is very important.
Keep researching and being innovative.

Explore all options.
Even if you come across road blocks of barriers.
Persistence.
Experience things.
Step outside your comfort zone
even though it might be risky or you’re scared of it.
The experience attracts you.
Coz without experience, something inside us sleeps.
You’ve got to awaken yourself,
and that sends out the messages to other people as well.
It’s not affecting you [alone],
it’s an electromagnetic field.
You’re going out there,
you’re inspiring other people.

You shouldn’t be influenced by someone,
you should be inspired.

[For example, be inspired] by artwork.
Students in Somaliland are not encouraged to do artwork.
University creates a space for art where inspiration happens.
If you have troubles at home,
you can go to that space to be inspired.
You draw an inspiration from everything, everyone.